What The Hell Am I Listening To?!?

The three best Spring 2009 releases from Georgia:


Lotus Plaza

While Bradford Cox gets the lion share of credit and attention when people talk about Deerhunter, the band is far from a solo endeavor. The quiet genius of Lockett Pundt is the ying to Cox’s yang. His debut album under his code name, Lotus Plaza, demonstrates not only the impressive talent Pundt possesses, but the music itself parallels his seemingly humble, stoic stage persona. Everything has this weird, distant detachment to its sound and the whole thing feels like a background. What initially attracted me to Deerhunter in the first place were the ambient, instrumental jams on Cryptograms, and those ideas seemed to be fleshed out much further on The Floodlight Collective. I feel like I peel back a new layer every time I listen to this record, so be advised this is a grower that may not hit you that hard upon your first listen, but I think it is one of the best to come out this year.

Lotus Plaza : Red Oak Way

Lotus Plaza : Whiteout

Buy The Floodlight Collective

Lotus Plaza myspace




Mastodon

Mastodon have returned with a record that is more psychedelic rock ‘n’ roll than metal. At times it reminds me of the best of Metallica, Black Sabbath, and Pink Floyd, but still remains completely a thing all its own. The record showcases just how successful this band is at straddling the line between arena rock massiveness and avant-garde artfulness. Crack The Skye is a logical progression for the band, and the best thing about this album is that it gives you exactly what you were expecting and hoping for from the follow up to Blood Mountain. I know I had some giant expectations, and they have been completely fulfilled. Here are the first two tracks to start your journey:

Mastodon : Oblivion

Mastodon : Divinations

Buy Crack the Skye

Mastodon myspace




Venice Is Sinking


photo by: Ian Darken

Athens’ Venice Is Sinking have finally unveiled their sophomore effort, AZAR, and it is a gorgeous yet surprisingly difficult release. Something about the pacing makes it hard to penetrate, and it has taken me a while to learn to love this record, but love it I do. It is simply unapologetic about its heavy employment of emotional builds and pushing dreamy lushness to its limits. Seven songs are strung together by the four part instrumental title track combing the best of both worlds between conceptualism and exceptional pop music. With Arcade Fire fallen back to Earth and Sufjan Stevens missing in action, the symphonic indie rock approach has become a lot less hip these days, but fashionable or not, Venice Is Sinking have created an outstanding collection of music that you should pick up:

Venice Is Sinking : Azar One

Venice Is Sinking : Iron Range

Buy AZAR

Venice Is Sinking myspace

FREE Download of Lee Harvey Oswald’s Debut LP!

Everyone seems to be digging the King Robot LP that I graced you readers with a couple weeks ago.  Due to popular demand, I have now been given a new treat by Lee Harvey Oswald to unleash on our readers.  It’s another taste of their Zone 7 crew which consists of producers Conspiracy, Mr. Fish, and  Threepeeoh, emcees Reid Richards, Verbal the Erfling, Vinnie Del Negro, and Glympse, and those nasty cuts by the infamous DJ Spytek.

This time it’s Lee Harvey Oswald’s own self-titled LP that I get to bring you and it features the whole crew showboating their talents!  I can promise you that this is only going to be up for a limited time so you better make sure you cop it while the getting is good!

And also, if you’re diggin’ their style of eclectic hip-hop make sure you go and check these guys out on April 10th as they headline a show with another group called the Deaf Judges at the 529 Bar down in the East ATL Village.

This album is absolutely fantastic but to truly understand the whole Lee Harvey Oswald experience you must go check these guys out live. You haven’t seen live local hip-hop in the ATL til you’ve seen a LHO show.

Here’s some of my favorites:

Lee Harvey Oswald : Government Chemicals (featuring Reid Richards)

Lee Harvey Oswald : Eagle Has Landed

Lee Harvey Oswald : Looking Glass Mirror (featuring Mighty Erfling)

And If You’re Diggin’ It, Here’s the .zip of the Whole Album!!!

Enjoy, and support local music!

Underground Hottlanta: Thy Mighty Contract


Thy Mighty Contract @ We No Fun

Atlanta supergroup Thy Mighty Contract just released their self-titled debut album last week on Room 10. Thy Mighty Contract is made up of members of Blame Game, Fagstatic, I Would Set Myself on Fire For You, The Orphins, Narcolepsy, Gold Standard and SIDS, and the project manages to blend some very distinct styles into a delectable new flavour which amplifies each of the member’s individual strengths. In terms of supergroups, it doesn’t get much better. It’s great to hear some more of Thomas Barnwell’s signature guitar sound as it seems like I have been waiting an eternity for a new Orphins record. Orphins‘ Daniel Upton also mixed this album, so their fingerprint is very present, but Lindsey Harbour’s vocals take the thing in a completely different direction. Her voice has this weird, almost Kim Gordon-esque character to it behind the punky yelling and screaming that I absolutely love. The record is a brutal but beautiful blast that seems to end too soon. Here’s a few cuts:

Thy Mighty Contract : Conjugal Freelance

Thy Mighty Contract : Partners In Crime


Buy Thy Mighty Contract

Thy Mighty Contract myspace

Read an interview from Pine with the band

Here is a video of them at Corndogorama last year:

You can catch Thy Mighty Contract live on the following dates:

4/18 @ Criminal Records (Record Store Day)
5/8 @ 529
6/16 @ Lenny’s

And finally, Hawks‘ Mike Keenan designed the artwork:

Underground Hottlanta: Nomen Novum


Moorish Idols @ Home Park Fest 2007

Much like how Merriweather Post Pavilion has set the bar very high for 2009 albums on a nationwide level, Nomen Novum‘s debut full-length, November, may very well end up being the best album to come out of Atlanta this year. For those of you who are not in the know, Nomen Novum is currently made up of two thirds of the now defunct Moorish Idols. The only official record that Moorish Idols released during their tenure was a self-titled EP. That album was our favourite EP from 2007, and I really can’t recommend it enough.

The brainchild of both bands, David Norbery, disbanded Moorish Idols and decided to start over fresh to better express his vision. He focused his attention on his solo project called Nomen Novum, which is literally Latin for “New Name”. I was honestly a bit skeptical at first about the change of direction because I loved the old incarnation so much, but I underestimated one of Atlanta’s best sonic artists. November is a matured, less restrained effort than Moorish Idols, and manages to expand on all of the magic and brilliance that made me a fan in the first place.

What is also interesting about the album is that it is actually a bit of a relic in relation to where Nomen Novum is musically right now. Over the course of last year, the project went from being a full band, to a solo act, to finally a duo comprised of Norbery and fellow Moorish Idols veteran Mark Godfrey. For the better part of last year, Nomen Novum abandoned the guitar driven approach found on November and moved in a loop based direction. At the beginning of this year, the two gathered a small group of close friends in an empty room and recorded the performance. The resulting EP is called Room For Rent and was released for free digitally around the same time they released November. The two releases are almost polar opposite sorts of records. As the band travels farther and farther away from their Moorish Idols roots, there is something truly astonishing about an artist that can continue to redefine themselves and the resulting art continue to be consistently excellent.

I hit up David Norbery via email to get the straight dope on the Nomen Novum happenings:


Me: What was the process like in making November? Where was it recorded? Who was involved?

Him: I started Nomen Novum around August 2007, as a sort of open-ended solo project. I had a lot of songs backed up and wanted to get them out fast (that didn’t exactly happen.) It was a very transitional time for me; my band of several years was ending, I had been through a painful breakup but was starting a new relationship, and some of my best friends had moved away. It was very sad but at the same time I felt a new sense of awareness and freedom to try something new. The album opens with an alarm clock, and a lot of the songs involve awakening from, or coming to terms with a stagnant or ending era. There’s plenty of melancholy and nostalgia but also optimism for the future. Alex Martin played drums on three tracks and gockenspiel on one, everything else is me. I recorded it in my small practice space/studio (formerly my parents’ garage,) where Mantis Man and the Moorish Idols EP were also made. Erik Olson and I mixed it at my house, and Carl Saff in Chicago mastered it. I designed the art and made the outer sleeves and Imprint in Florida did the discs and inserts. The album was delayed for a number of reasons, mainly because I chose to put out the Mantis Man 7” first, and try playing the songs live with a band.

Me: I noticed you had many different lineups for live Nomen Novum shows last year. Have you settled into a permanent lineup now, or will this project be one that remains in constant flux?

Him: We played a handful of local shows with rotating members and formed a tighter quartet for a short tour with the Orphins, but the “band” thing never quite gelled. We weren’t all on the same page stylistically, and I was getting more into repetitive, loop based songwriting, which didn’t always require accompaniment. After the tour I did a solo set at WonderRoot, playing drums and guitar to prerecorded loops. I was kind of nervous but it went really well. The material was more conceptual and process-oriented, and wouldn’t have worked in the context of a band. Mark joined and we did another small tour with him on keyboard/laptop and me on guitar, drums and sampler. Since then we’ve gotten more into working with field recordings, and our last few shows haven’t had guitar or drums at all. We’ve discussed working with other musicians but working as a duo hasn’t been a limitation – the standard guitar/bass/drum format, on the other hand, was extremely limiting.

Me: Could you describe what the scene was like when you recorded Room For Rent? Do you have a favourite random moment that showed up on the recording?

Him: Room For Rent was really fun to make. I pitched the idea to Mark as a kind of musical installation. We had an empty bedrom in my house and wanted to take advantage of the acoustics before someone else moved in, so I brought my PA and we threw together a little party. About sixteen of our friends came. The room was tiny and people were constantly entering and leaving, very casual. We got beer and snacks and turned blacklights on. The performance sounds better now than it probably did at the time; I think a lot of our friends thought it was just weird. We tried to keep it loose and interactive, and I think people got a kick out of hearing their conversations looped. There’s a pause at the beginning of “Ready 4 Kidz” where my friend Sean asks if we want some pizza while we play, and that cracked me up so much I actually turned it up during mixing.

Me: What do you and Nomen Novum have planned for 2009?

Him: Mark and I have been collecting samples and live recordings, and figuring out how we want to use them on the new record. I just got a laptop and we’re going to start swapping tracks back and forth via FTP. We also have about an EP’s worth of slightly older tracks that I’m eager to finish and release somehow. A lot of stuff will probably end up on our website, which is a project in itself. I really need to get on the ball about promoting November – I still don’t even have that many copies assembled, which is stupid considering the time and money I’ve spent on the project. I’m supposed to get together with my friend Joey soon to finish editing a video he shot for “Permanent Makeup,” and I’m also trying to plan a tour before my vacation days expire. So I guess that’s a lot. Oh, and shirts! I’m making new tie-dyed shirts.

Me: How do you feel about the Atlanta music scene?

Him: Our scene has a lot of potential – places like WonderRoot, Vacation and 529 are all great examples of people taking initiative and making something cool happen. That said, I am still pretty ambivalent about most of the music that’s coming out of Atlanta – I wish local bands would take more risks instead of staying in comfort zones. I used to go to tons of shows but now I mainly just go to Kirkwood Ballers Club. That’s where the most interesting music is coming from these days and that’s where whatever’s “next” will probably start.




Ok, so here’s some media to get you hooked:

Nomen Novum : Hand Me Downs

Nomen Novum : Don’t Look Up

Nomen Novum : Ready 4 Kidz

Buy November

Download Room For Rent for free

Nomen Novum myspace

Slushco Releases The Silver Surface Demos

Back in 2006 shortly after Slushco released their second album, Clouds, Brian Slusher had been working on a follow up. This new Slushco album was entitled The Silver Surface and delved into themes like robot domination and human reprogramming. Unfortunately, the band sort of fell apart before they got around to recording it. Slusher had recorded a demo version of the album, but let it sit on the shelves to work on last year’s exceptional When I Met The Boss Of Nova as Slushco had now become essentially a solo project for him. He had promised to release it eventually when we talked to him a year ago, and it looks like he has made good on his promise. This official version is the first mix he did with the demos, as the original recordings themselves were lost on a broken hard drive. Even with all of these factors working against it, Brian Slusher’s genius in a studio shines brightly yet again for another beautifully stunning Slushco album that I highly recommend checking out. Get hip to one of Atlanta’s best kept secrets. Here is the opening track for The Silver Surface:

Slushco : Sad Songs And Lonely Places

Buy The Silver Surface Demos here

Slushco myspace

The Top 15 Best Atlanta Albums Of 2008

It’s been a banner year for the Atlanta music scene. The international success of bands like Deerhunter, Black Lips, and Mastodon over the last couple of years has put a spotlight on our city and many other artists are beginning to reap the benefits. I still believe that too many of our best and brightest are being overlooked, but that’s exactly why I do what I do. Looking back at my favourite local albums from last year, it seems this year’s class of studio work runs substantially deeper. I felt our scene is so overpopulated by albums worthy of recognition that I extended my original top 10 to a top 15 and I’m still leaving off a ton of really good records from Inside The Perimeter.

A couple of notes, there are a few local albums that have been self-released over the holidays, but I’m rolling them into consideration for next year’s list, and one album on here technically came out in the holiday season of last year. I didn’t do write-ups for this list as many of these are going to make my top LP and top EP lists in a few days, but if you are unfamiliar with any of these acts, I urge you to click on the “tags” below to see all of our posts on the artist. I know someone is gonna complain about Bradford Cox being involved with 20% of this list, but the guy is kicking ass in both quality and quantity of work, so don’t be a player hater. Here is the best Atlanta music of 2008:


15. The Goldest : The Goldest

Get album for free


14. Gringo Star : All Y’all

Buy Album


13. Atlas Sound : Things I’ll Miss

Get album for free


12. Today The Moon, Tomorrow The Sun :

The Lightning Exhibit

Buy album


11. No Face : You Mean So Much To Me

Buy album


10. Nomen Novum : Mantis Man 7″

Buy album


9. Parade : Ghosts

Get album for free


8. The Liverhearts : Ornament

Buy album


7. Lid Emba & Bobcrane : We Substitute

Radiance

Buy album


6. All The Saints : Fire On Corridor X

Buy album


5. Dead Confederate : Wrecking Ball

Buy album


4. Atlas Sound : Let The Blind Lead Those

Who Can See But Cannot Feel

Buy album


3. This Piano Plays Itself : This Piano Plays

Itself

Buy album


2. Slushco : When I Met The Boss Of Nova

Buy album


1. Deerhunter : Microcastle/Weird Era Cont.

Buy album


The Quest For The Best Atlanta Music Of 2008


No Face @ The Drunken Unicorn (12/3/08)

I’m just finishing up my best Atlanta music list of 2008 and I figured I would talk about a few of the contenders I hadn’t discussed yet this year. When I make my suggested show listings each week, I try to look into as many acts as I can that I don’t recognize playing The Earl or The Drunken Unicorn because their booking is so consistently high quality. I stumbled across an Altanta band I had never heard of called No Face and really loved the couple of songs I heard. I went to see them earlier this month at the Drunken Unicorn, and unfortunately it was very disappointing. Luckily I bought their album before they played, because their album and their live show are as different as night and day. All of You Mean So Much To Me‘s strengths are absent from their 3-piece concert setup with uninspiring drumming and bass playing completely drowning out the soft vocals and occasional guitar playing from Chandler Kelley, the obvious brains behind the operation. It’s a shame, but I won’t hold it against his excellent record that I highly recommend getting. The carefully crafted instrumentation perfectly accentuates Kelley’s endearing song-writing, and there seems enormous potential from this ATLien if he can put together a stage act that rivals his splendid studio work.

No Face : If I Found Somewhere To Live

No Face : Siuil A Ruin

No Face myspace

Buy You Mean So Much To Me





Fag Static

If screamy vocals are an impenetrable fortress between you and enjoying a band, than you should probably skip over this. If you can get beyond that, or even better, get on the vibe with them, this album is incredible. I had never got around to obtaining a copy of this until a few weeks ago, but I have been thoroughly jamming it ever since. Fag Static include half of the retired Atlanta band Blame Game. Fag Static is now actually a dead band as well, as the BG kids continue to jump around from project to project (Keep your ears out for Sunglasses and a Thy Mighty Contract record). So, before this album becomes just another buried treasure of this city’s scene, get hip to it:

Fag Static : House Boats

Fag Static : Annegato

Buy Ficcanaso





Today The Moon, Tomorrow The Sun

Last weekend when I was out in East Atlanta, I ran into a couple of the members of the now defunct Atlanta band Parade. They had come from the Today The Moon, Tomorrow The Sun show that I had totally forgot about and they highly recommended the band, so I bought both of their records(both came out this year). Upon listening to them, I discovered there are an enormous amount of parallels between Parade and TTMTTS. TTTMTTS is almost a bit too reminiscent honestly, but packaged in a more accessible, dance-rock-dance sort of way. While their songwriting may not be quite as tremendous as Parade‘s yet, their execution is rather impressive. They certainly seem to have all the makings of a successful band in this city.

Today The Moon, Tomorrow The Sun : The Lightning Exhibit : Terrain

Today The Moon, Tomorrow The Sun : Hurry Up And Wait : Never. Always. Good.

Today The Moon, Tomorrow The Sun myspace

Buy The Lightning Exhibit

Buy Hurry Up And Wait



Expect my best Atlanta albums of 2008 list by the end of the weekend.

Parade Release Final Album, Ghosts, For Free


Ghosts album cover

An Atlanta band I have been a fan of for a long time, Parade, called it quits earlier this year. But before they did, they had recorded one last album called Ghosts that they have finally finished and released for free today. What a great Halloween surprise gift! I had been looking forward to this album for quite a while, and after my first listen, I think it may end up being their finest piece of work to date. It’s great to finally hear these songs that I had loved live in studio form. Be sure not to miss this:

Parade : White

Download Ghosts for free: [MP3] [WAV]


Parade @ Criminal Records (6/17/07)

Underground Hottlanta: The Goldest

While I cetainly have my preferences towards more progressive and experimental music, I still love some good, easily accessible pop music when it’s done right. An Atlanta supergroup called The Goldest, featuring musicians who have been with such illustrious groups as Dropsonic, Jupiter Watts, Long Knives, The Sudden Rays, 3D5spd and Envie to name just a few, recently released their debut EP. It contains 5 upbeat, sugary sweet jams that I have been absolutely loving. Another thing is the album sees a plethora of guest appearances from other ATL superstars, most notably Michelle DuBois (Luigi) and Tracy Clark (The Preakness). In Athens, you often see records featuring dozens of guest appearances from other local musicians, but you don’t see that so much in the Atlanta scene.

Anyways, give it a listen:

The Goldest: Already Gone

The Goldest: FMGold

For your reading pleasure, I did an interview with The Goldest‘s Justin Gray, Matthew Chenoweth, and Kevin Wallace via email:

Ohmpark: How did this project come about?

Justin Gray: Matt and I met at The Happenstance, an annual show at the Earl that throws musicians together that have never played before to write and perform 4 songs in the same day. I was already in a band (the Sudden Rays) with Kevin that was making a record at Southern Tracks, and that’s where we met. I had played previously in American Dream w/ Susannah. Lastly, Matt brought his former band mate Wilson on to round things out.

Matthew Chenoweth: Justin and I got paired up a couple of years ago at the Happenstance and it really clicked between us. He’s the perfect bass player in my opinion – solid lines, heavy grooves, musical approach. We ended up in Day Mars Ray together and that was a great way to find out we dug the same kind of music and wanted the same kinds of things from a band. The next step was jamming together on some song fragments we both had, and we left the rehearsal space completely juiced. Next was to land the perfect drummer – we both wanted Kevin (Justin already played with him in The Sudden Rays and I knew him from Jupiter Watts). Kevin sat in and was convinced after one jam session – we wrote a song in that session that eventually got recorded (not released yet). Next time we got together we wrote “We All Want More.” We seemed to click beautifully on the creative tip and almost every time someone started playing it turned into a song. We’d all done the rock trio thing and wanted a bigger sound so we kept writing and brainstorming on how to build what we thought would be the perfect band. Lots of vocals, etc. Next thing I knew Justin had booked us into Southern Tracks to cut ‘Fine’ (another spontaneous writing effort) and when Susannah came in to sing we knew we had another member – even if she was too busy, we’d wait. Didn’t take long. Sus was a full member by the time we recorded ‘Already Gone’ (she’d been on every track anyway). When we booked our first show we knew we needed a little more support in the band which came from Tom (the engineer who’d been recording us) and my friend Wilson (he and I had been in The Lord is My Shotgun together). Both great additions – Tom adding big full guitars and Wilson covering additional guitar parts in the recordings, along with vocals and keyboards. Voila! The Goldest.

JG: So that is the nuts and bolts but what really got us going was our 1st trip to southern tracks to record “fine”. We started recording in the 10am and left at 3am with a finished song—

something about moving so quickly yet being so fully immersed in just one song really got our attention. We knew that we had found a sound that was very, very special and unlike anything any of us had done before. Our sum was truly greater than our parts. That excitement, some good fights, and fumes got us through the next year and now here we are… loving what we’ve done, and optimistic about our future!

Ohmpark: Could you tell me a little bit about how the songwriting process works with the band?

Click here to read the entire post…

What The Hell Am I Listening To?!?

While I tend to keep the conversation around here on progressive, forward looking artists, I can still appreciate a more conservative, retro approach when it’s done well. Here are three local examples that can dig into older styles and still keep me more than interested:

Dead Confederate


Dead Confederate @ The Earl (6/7/08)

Dead Confederate‘s debut LP Wrecking Ball sees the band really define their sound. They have developed an interesting hybrid that seamlessly combines Nirvana-style ’90s with the jamminess and Rock ‘n’ Roll ethics of a band like My Morning Jacket. When you ponder the mass appeal of this mixture, it’s surprising no one has been as successful at blending the two as this until now. The only possible knock on this thing is that Dead Confederate may not be departing far enough away from their influences, but I think when you take a deeper listen, they are achieving a rather unique sound, and the album itself is an epic one. Here’s the beginning and the end of it:

Dead Confederate : Heavy Petting

Dead Confederate : Wrecking Ball

Buy Wrecking Ball here

Dead Confederate Myspace


A Fight To The Death

I’m not sure exactly when I got turned on to A Fight To The Death, but I had got a copy of songwriter CJ Bargamian’s (ex-Crybaby, ex-Myssouri) EP under the moniker of A Fight To The Death called End Of Continent Sadness some time ago. Written while he was in San Francicsco in 2006, I thought the album had a lot of potential but sounded more like a demo, and in fact, it sort of was. Many of the tracks from it show up reworked and improved on the full band incarnation of A Fight To The Death‘s new self-titled debut LP. AFTTD sees Bargamain’s gorgeous songwriting surrounded by a very talented band that seems to compliment him perfectly and results in a tasty flavour of nu-Americana. Although, going back and listening to the stripped down versions on End Of Continent Sadness is even more enjoyable now that I know these songs so intimately.

A Fight To The Death : Killdeer

A Fight To The Death : Old Black Chains

Buy AFTTD here

A Fight To The Death myspace


Long Knives

Long Knives are another local band that has been on my radar for sometime, but I just never got around to giving them a deep look until now, and I found I was missing out big time. While I wouldn’t make much of a direct comparison to Wilco, Long Knives has the same sort of depth and innate ability to get me to bite hard into a genre I would usually be uninterested in. Another reason i think this album is so good is because it is so dynamic. It hits every end of the spectrum from a beautiful, downbeat ballad song like “Fuckwit” to the unbelievably stunning jammout of the second part of “Headlong Into The Abyss”. If you have been missing out on these guys too, it’s time to give them a try:

Long Knives : ELM

Long Knives : Pale Blue Walls

Buy Long Knives here

Long Knives Myspace

What The Hell Am I Listening To?!?

This is an “Underground Hottlanta” crossover edition of “What The Hell” with two stellar albums from two underrated local bands:

The Liverhearts

The Liverhearts have been a staple in the Atlanta underground music scene most of this decade. Their post-rock meets math-rock meets punk sound is anchored by driving rhythms on the drums under sweetly dissident guitar lines and intense, raw vocals. Their debut full-length, Ornament, is a 38 minute high energy sonic blast. Momentum only lulls briefly at the half-time instrumental track “Panicum Repens” to give the listener a break before opening up a second assault. This is one of those albums you have to listen to as loud as possible and one I’ve been jamming hard.

Of Doctors And Daggers

Cincinnati

The Liverhearts Myspace

But Ornament here

All The Saints

This Atlanta via Alabama trio take grungy, dirty sounds of the last 20 years and arrange them together with a post-modern aesthetic and a touch of psychedelia. One of the things I love most about their album, Fire On Corridor X, is that it achieves the fuzzy, distant The Jesus And Mary Chain feel that many bands have been aiming for lately without seeming like an overt, cheap ripoff. In fact its their tempered employment of this sound that make them so unique. Rather than hiding behind distortion, their song arrangements seem to shine with a dose of reverb. The album itself also has plenty of range and dynamics that takes you on a journey through their world of bluesy shoegaze.

Farmacia

Papering Fix

All The Saints Myspace

Buy Fire On Corridor X here

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